Margaret Clarke 00:00
You know, I have heard stories where people would say deliverance has been transformational, and they would, you know, just be in speak so positively of different leaflets, other people would describe it as traumatic. And so I think for me just helping, understanding it is really important to for churches to be able to do it if they are going to choose that to do in a way that can be the most supportive.
Laura Howe 00:27
From Hope Made Strong, this is The Care Ministry Podcast, a show about equipping ministry leaders and transforming communities through care. Supporting those at your church and community not only changes individuals' lives, but it grows and strengthens the church but we want to do that without burning out. So listen, as we learn about tools, strategies and resources that will equip your team and strengthen hope.
I'm Laura Howe and on the show today we're going to be talking with Margaret Clark. She is head of the counseling department at Briercrest University or seminary about the intersection of faith and mental health and specifically around deliverance models. Now a few months ago, my church received an email from an occasional attendee who was seeking support. A friend of theirs suggested that they needed deliverance. However, when this person looked up deliverance ministry, they read stories of convulsing and people vomiting and participating in activities that really quite actually frightened them.
This person emailed us asking if they indeed need deliverance, and if our church participated in these activities. Now, in all honesty, I didn't know how to respond. I wasn't familiar with deliverance ministry, I never came across that growing up. And on one hand, this individual had been dabbling in the occult and some pretty deep stuff and on the other hand, this person was repentant wanting to turn away and live for God.
Now I spoke with my pastor kind of secretly hoping he said, we did not provide deliverance because I had never engaged in this ministry activity. And actually, it made me really uncomfortable but it got me thinking about why it made me uncomfortable and what is deliverance ministry.
And when I started researching it, there were articles reflecting a huge range of opinions, everything from people saying that it is not biblical, to those saying it is in actually it's an integral part of church ministry. There were stories of how deliverance changed someone's life in incredible positive ways and then there were stories about saying how it was abusive, and how traumatizing it was.
What I did notice, however, is that there was not common understanding of what deliverance ministry was, there was no common definition, approach or model in how it's offered, that seemed to be left up into interpretation.
Every church or every ministry offered a different deliverance model. Now having differing or polarizing opinions and beliefs are is that's not new to the Christian faith, I don't think anyone would be able to find two people that believe the exact same thing. And there are many areas in care ministry as well, that people have differing opinions on things like churches offering counseling, or how people disperse financial aid or offer pastoral care, or maybe discipleship pathways and training requirements for volunteers.
There are so many different ways that churches can offer this and, and that is okay. I think it's necessary for each community and culture and church to be unique, just as unique as the people that they serve. So I am not wanting to approach this topic in an ignorant or arrogant way, saying that there is only one way to offer care and support people because the only one way that I know of is Jesus.
However, I could not shake the stories of people being hurt, or traumatized or even turning away from their faith, it hurt my heart. We I don't think anyone would ever want that to be the result of people seeking support from the church. Now, shortly after I received this email, I was sitting next to my new friend Margaret at an event. She and I quickly bonded as being some of the the few Canadians in the room and we began chatting and I brought up this question of deliverance because as the head of the counseling department at a highly regarded Canadian seminary, she was clearly more versed in this topic than I was and the wisdom and grace that she shared was absolutely amazing and I knew immediately that we need to have a podcast on this topic, because she approached this topic of deliverance with such an open heart.
It wasn't prescriptive. It wasn't conclusive. It wasn't saying that there was only one right or wrong way, but she recognized that the common goal was for the church to support people to health and wholeness and freedom, rather than attacking or defending a specific model or approach. She spoke about common red flags that any ministry deliverance or, or counseling or what have you any ministry that might have that could traumatize and hurt people, despite the church having the best of intentions. Now, this was several months ago. So I am so excited to introduce you to a new friend and revisit this conversation.
Margaret grew up in rural Alberta, like I said, a fellow Canadian. And as a young person, she was quiet and studious and had a deep connection to her faith. Margaret married a pastor when she and when she was in her 20s sought out support from a counselor. And this positive experience was the catalyst that brought her back to school to build a career focused on supporting clergy health.
Margaret Clarke 06:01
So again, my husband was in local church ministry for 25 years, he's now in a denominational role. And so I was for many years as a pastor's wife, which I had an interesting relationship with that title. When I was in my late 20s, and had a couple of little kids, it's when I got some help myself from a really great Christian therapist. And that was just so meaningful and it was in that kind of season, I felt really drawn to go back and get my master's degree, and become…
Laura Howe 06:29
Isn’t that how so many of us find our way into this, we either receive help ourselves and was like, oh, I want to be like that person. Or, or maybe we fall into it, because, you know, we we become a caregiver or supportive of our friends or family and then really, we just develop skills and that just kind of becomes the pathway we take. That's so fun. So you receive support, and then was like, I What about your counselor? That was like, I want to be like that?
Margaret Clarke 07:01
Yeah, well, he again, he was specifically somebody who supported pastors and their families, our denomination, entire attempt to provide pastoral care. And even though what I needed to talk about wasn't necessarily to do with ministry stuff, it was just important to have a safe space. And just walking with with with somebody. And so I think that that season, and again, it was sort of a in some ways vague. And I just was a sense of like, I want to help. And I want to do this. And so pursuit that ended up having a very interesting career and all kinds of areas I didn't expect. What do you mean?
Well, I ended up working primarily in mental health and addictions, I worked for many years and low to working with like, teenagers who had substance use issues, and absolutely loved it, even though my own experience, as I shared was pretty straight laced. I never been around drugs and so it was quite interesting how rich that work was even that was quite unexpected and that was beautiful.
And even though my in lots of ways, my heart from the very beginning was to support like pastors and their families. It wasn't only until recently, actually only last couple years that my focus has been that I had all these other rich experiences, which has also equipped me to do my role as a trainer of therapists. And I, I hope I can, as a professor really helped provide a broad understanding of the world of mental health and addictions for our students who are becoming therapists.
Laura Howe 08:29
And that's what you do now. Can you share a little bit about you just did a little there. But we'd love to hear like your role in prior cast. And in your research, your recent research that you're doing?
Margaret Clarke 08:39
Yeah, so the last few years have been very rich. And again, really, I may be unexpected in some ways, I'm not but so my full time role is as the department head at Briercrest Seminary for the counseling department and I, so we have a Master's of counseling a master's in marriage and family program there. And I'm one of the professors who teach in the program and this beautiful opportunity to provide and support our students as they become equipped as therapists. So that's my full time job. I also have a small private practice, where I work as a therapist, we believe that all of our faculty should be practicing therapists. And so I do that most of my well, maybe it's about 50/50, as far as my focus with clients is with pastors and their families, but I also see just anybody for therapeutic kind of things, and work with them. And then I'm also as I did my PhD, I had the chance to do a study on clergy resilience, and so that's been a huge part as well. So I do a lot of speaking on the topic and workshops and support for for different groups around what do pastors need to help them do well, and, and, and to thrive, so..
Laura Howe 09:48
And that's where we met we were found ourselves at the same table and bonded over being Canadian. There's very few Canadians there. So it's like, You're from Canada. I'm from Canada. And then during that conversation, I were kind of talking about this concept of deliverance or this model of ministry of deliverance and at that point in time, that was a few months ago. And I, you know, like I said in the intro where, you know, it was kind of my first introduction to it. So after doing some research, I was like, oh, this is a whole thing and there's a lot of different approaches or thoughts around what deliverance is, is it biblical, is it not and, and, you know, our conversation isn't to determine whether it's right or wrong, we're not drawing a line in the sand here.
But some of the things that you were sharing with me, I was like, this is going to be a great podcast I want. And so thank you so much. I know this is a little bit outside of what you are research, you're doing clergy health, but I just thought that the conversation we had was so rich, that would love to share some of the wisdom that you offered me while we were sitting at the table.
So to start off, would love to hear, you know, let's talk about what deliverance is, or what deliverance ministry can be. There's many different models. So what are some of I don't know, the models or approaches to deliverance that you have come across in your work?
Margaret Clarke 11:16
Sure, yeah. And I don't want to present myself as like a academic expert on this topic, this, this kind of knowledge comes from some of my ministry experience and my exposure there, some of my personal kind of experience, and then as a therapist, kind of hearing stories. And so, you know, I have heard stories where people would say deliverance has been transformational, and they would, you know, just be in speak so positively of different live rooms, other people would describe it as traumatic.
And so I think for, for me, just helping, understanding it is really important to for churches to be able to do it, if they are going to choose that to do in a way that can be the most supportive. So a couple things with deliverance, I think that's helpful for people. So again, some of I think what's important to be aware of there are fairly significant different models of deliverance out there. And that makes a big difference. And I think it's important for churches to think that through. So there are there's kind of two categories that they often describe, there's what's called Truth encounter. And then there's what's called Power encounter, truth encounter really involves the sort of declarations of truth as a way to combat any spiritual forces and do that power encounters are more direct in that they they feel that there's authority to speak directly to the spiritual realm and any spiritual forces that might be affecting it.
We've within those camps, those can also look very different and so some will still be very power encounters still might be very calm, others can be quite dramatic. And and there are models out there and traditions out there that that involve that. Again, I think one of the things that I would say, for churches as they consider this, I mean, some of you need some of it, what needs to be wrestled with this. There's different theological perspectives on sort of the spiritual realm and spiritual warfare and so I think wrestling with what is theologically congruent for the group. And there are different experiences, and then what people kind of think is, you know, their own beliefs about this is important. I think one of the caught. Oh, sorry,
Laura Howe 13:21
When you were said truth and power, so those are two different we'll say tracks or two different veins that it's not modules where a deliverance ministry has one level as truth, one level power, it's it's more of two different veins of how it's it's pursued? Is that what you mean?
Margaret Clarke 13:41
Uhmm, that's kind of, in my experience, I suppose there might be some ministries or churches that might have some level of both. My experience has been people tend to kind of endorse like, or use one or the other one side or the other. Okay. Yeah. So back in the day, I don't, you know, it's still it's still exist, but Freedom in Christ is a ministry that used a truth encounter. And again, it involves declarations and different, like, you know, like different processes of things like that, as opposed to some of the power encounters and against some of the power encounters, again, can be quite calm and, you know, fairly mythological, like have a format they follow. Others are going to be very kind of discernment based, a little bit more dramatic and that's a you know, there's some stories about where some traditions believe in order for the the demon to be expelled, that person has to vomit.
So stories like that, of course, would, you know, might make people a little bit uncomfortable, although there are people who that's their understanding of what's effective, and they, they might find it helpful. So again, it's that that interweaving of what are people's understandings perspectives on these things, but those are some of the stories that you hear.
Again, there's, you know, I think if people wanted to those, there's that you know, or the long tradition. You know, the Catholic Church has a lot a lot tradition they they do refer to it as exorcism, which again, lots of interesting images come to mind for movies. But there has been sort of this various iterations throughout church history. So yeah, you know, I think for this isn't a new thing. No, it's not a new thing, how it kind of shows up in different traditions. You know, again, different traditions have different views on this and so it comes up in different ways, I’ m sure.
A couple of the things, I think, when I think about the model, a think it's good to be reflective on it, for a church and in a ministry again, thinking about what are their their theological views about the spiritual realm? I do think one of the things when we think about like, why is it that some people have an experience that is so meaningful and profound and why do some potentially traumatic.
I think one of the things I think it is important for, for churches to think through with their approach is, is it a fear based approach? And I think caution in that, right, so I think if you're going to think about deliverance, right, that word is kind of meaningful, right? It should come with a sense of freedom, and release and I think, unfortunately, sometimes that instead, it can come with a sense of fear.
And so I think, for churches to think through that, and how they either was being presented or again, what are some of the kind of core principles, I think, is important. In that regard, I think also, especially in our culture, where, you know, our awareness of mental health, your whole purpose of your podcast, as I understand it, you know, that piece of it is unimportant, part two, right, we're whole beings, and our psychological, mental health well being is interwoven with our spiritual well being. Yes!
And so I do think that's where also churches like, there are some amazing, you know, believers who are mental health professionals out there. And so to be able to consult with that, as well, and to just talk it through, and hopefully to have people whether they're in your congregation or in the broader, you know, system that can support you and think that through, it's really helpful as wel because, again, you know, just kind of approaching it like, Oh, this is the this is sort of the tool or the ministry for everybody, I think is a little unwise and so being able to consider that, and that's where some other perspectives can be helpful to support the church. The other…
Laura Howe 17:19
So if someone is…sorry, just one to clarify. So when someone is struggling with something, whether it's, you know, wanting to they've had a cultic experiences, or they their perception of what they're experiencing is demonic in nature, or things like that, to say, to look at different approaches say that maybe a deliverance model may work for some but not for others, and to really explore different is that is that what you're suggesting?
Margaret Clarke 17:55
Yeah, well, I think on the big picture, I think, just in general, if churches are just generic, like considering a deliverance ministry, period, I think it's good to have that voice at the table. Somebody who can help think through those implications, and consider that, then I do think for sure Laura gets into this place of you have to think about the individual recipients like who is it that is potentially getting that ministry? And also, who's facilitating it? These two things, I think there's some and that's where I think it's helpful to think through some of those things as well.
Laura Howe 18:28
One of the things I would what Yeah, I was gonna say, what, when you say the recipient, what are some of the, you know, what are some of the things that we should be looking at, for those who are coming to us for care?
Margaret Clarke 18:42
Yeah, one of the things I definitely think is helpful when you when you're thinking about approach is also think about, is it a broader process that is going to provide ongoing care and support. So some delivering can be sort of a one-off.
Laura Howe 18:59
You create like a vacuum, where something, there's an there's an experience, there's a release or whatever there there is, but then if there's no follow up, then yeah, it definitely. Yeah, that wouldn't be good.
Margaret Clarke 19:12
Yeah. And that sort of thing. There's some systems that are kind of it's part of a broader kind of process. And so I think, for to think through that, and how is it that that it, that it provides care on a whole level, right, and also thinking, you know, certainly at the church ministry level, like what are some of the other systems that are there to support care, but then more broadly, as well, like, it may be that somebody could benefit from deliverance, and at the time also needs counseling, or needs to talk? It could be a both and it doesn't have to be an either or? Yeah, and that's where we need to remember I think sometimes we are whole beings, right? That means are all of these things are interwoven and affect each other? And so the more we can take that understanding of our whole being good It's important instead of just getting a little tunnel vision with it.
And again, it may be very helpful for a person but make sure keeping some of these things in mind. I have a few when it when it comes to thinking about somebody who might be receiving deliverance, there's definitely a few things I've seen where it probably can make things go a little arrived. One of the things I think, again, because people who find it meaningful, and really believe in deliverance, they are so passionate about it, sometimes that can come off a little bit like a sales pitch to another person, and that…
Laura Howe 20:38
You don't want to manipulate people into. yeah,
Margaret Clarke 20:42
Yeah, well, and I don't even think it's manipulation. I just think they're so passionate about it because, you know, when you've experienced something meaningful, you're like, you've got to do this. This is transformational. Which Yeah, it's, it's true for your journey. Right. But I think sometimes what happens is, then the person can't Yeah, they they aren't really thinking about it, they aren't haven't had the chance to really rough wrestle with understanding what it is. Some people, I think, inadvertently get into it without actually really understanding what it is. And then that's where it has the potential to go awry, right, because they maybe hadn't thought about what they believe about the spiritual realm.
And suddenly, they're in the midst of this situation that's very much addressing and focusing on that. So, you know, again, making sure like this, this idea of does the person understand it? And and is that what they want? Right? Have they had the chance to think it through? Have they had the chance to say, Yes, I think this would be would be would be good for me, you know, in the therapy world, we call that informed consent. And but it really is that process, do they understand what it is? Have, they had a chance to think it through and, and again, I don't think people are in like, intentionally being manipulated, I just think in their passion for their own change. Sometimes it comes across that way and so I think it's still good for people to just have that chance to really think it through on that level.
Laura Howe 22:07
And, and if someone says, you know, that was really great for you, but this isn't great for me. You know, there's this thought that this is the solution to that problem. And there's only one solution. We you know, as human nature, do, we tend to be black and white thinking where there's a right way and a wrong way and that could be in this area as well, where if this was right for me, then it must be right for you. Yeah, and that’s not necessarily the case?
Margaret Clarke 22:36
Totally. Yeah, I would be very like, again, I think, yeah, just seeing and, you know, learning over over time, and just seeing different things. That would be definitely something if somebody is uneasy or uncertain about it, err on the side of like, you know, what, why don't you wait? Or why don't you like, if that's not for you, I think one of the things again, thinking holistically is there are many ways that people can can pursue and find healing. And you know, deliverance, for some people might be that, but there are other options and the interwoven nature of who we are, right. Sometimes when people go for counseling, and it might not have any spiritual focus, there might be change that happens on a spiritual level and, and so I think just just trusting that, that and being a bit cautious if if you're getting into like this, everybody has to do this. And, and especially giving space for somebody to come to the point of where it's their choice. Along with that, I think expectations, setting realistic expectations. So this is a definitely an area, when we talk about the you know where it goes or I sometimes again, because some people find it so profound and impactful in their life, sometimes that sets people up to come in with.
So they might be like, yes, I want to do this, I need this. But then they come in with unrealistic expectations. And the fact is, again, it's not a magic wand, it is not a magic wand. And again, for some people, it's profound but there's also so many other aspects of their journey, again, where they've been at where they're what's next, and so many things. So I don't think we can just be like, this is the one and only way and it's a quick fix. Right? And that's where I think what I mentioned earlier, are part of a broader journey, right? Like before our both our spiritual and our emotional well being those things are so lived out in in a continuous way and so definitely setting realistic expectations. I definitely think I've seen a lot of people who it some of it was they went in with such high hopes and then when it did that, it it it really profoundly impacted them because then they felt like let down and because of the spiritual nature of it like that could be transferred to their their belief about what you know how God is there and how God is caring for them.
And so I think those are really important things to think about as well like this whole and I don't know how to temper that. I would just say to churches, be cautious and again, when it's profound, you know, the the idea of testimony is a big thing in churches, we want to honor that and celebrate what's happened in somebody's life. And at the same time recognize everyone's journey is a bit unique. And this, this may or may not be the right thing for somebody at any given point may not have the same impact.
Laura Howe 25:19
This is this is a hard, this is a hard conversation to have, like you said, it's hard to navigate how to have this conversation with people because it's this element of faith that if you don't go in with high levels of faith and believing that it's already been done, then then the lack the lack of results is a product of your lack of faith. And I could see how this would be you want to temper people's expectations but there's also this fueling or this, you know, wanting to help people to have high levels of faith in what God can do in their life and this would be a challenging conversation and a challenging way to navigate this.
Margaret Clarke 26:06
Yeah. Well, and that's like, I think, you know, when I say think holistically, right, that we are both spiritual, and we have this emotional piece and the social piece in this physical piece. When we think about that, we need to understand, right, these are all together all at once impact. Yeah, further, right. And so that's where I would say, you know, with when you're thinking about somebody, maybe who's potentially going to receive deliverance for being involved in your ministry, a be curious about the broader issues at play, right. So if somebody is in crisis, you know, on some level, maybe it's a good time, maybe it's not, right, if somebody has significant mental health challenges, they're going maybe the first step isn't deliverance, maybe that's maybe an option down the road, but maybe there's other supports that they need. And so I think just keeping that in mind, the the broader picture, and again, this is where having some some trusted folks who can can help consult and think that through, but then also just thinking about where the person is at and the journey that they're on. And that's where, hopefully, you know, a lot of this is done in local churches, where there's community and connection and relationship and an ongoing and caring and supportive relationship, to kind of know, like, what's going on for a person.
Laura Howe 27:18
As churches are looking for, looking for how can you know, there's a there's a belief, or there's an understanding that this is a ministry that they want to pursue?
Do you have any tips for facilitators, you mentioned a couple helping people with expectations, developing a holistic perspective, and maybe almost not, not in the clinical sense triaging, but, you know, looking at someone's readiness, is this an appropriate time and space for them at this time? Is there anything else that that you were able to, in your experience, be able to provide some support or tips for for those who are offering this ministry?
Margaret Clarke 28:01
Yeah,I do think it's important for churches to be like, thoughtful about who is involved in that type of, of ministry for some of the reasons we've already discussed. So again, I think thinking through like, is the facilitator spiritually and emotionally kind of in a healthy space, right? Unfortunately, sometimes people get into wanting to help others because of their own needs. And, and unfortunately, then what happens is it prevents them being sensitive to the needs of others. So really, there is this, you know, again, this, this piece of, of deliverance, that can be very, you know, this caring, almost therapeutic relationships, right. And so I think this piece of it needs to be carrying, or carrying space, it needs to be safe, it needs to be respectful, right? If the person is uncomfortable, and says no, that needs to be respected, or I don't want to continue with this sensitive to how the person is doing. And so again, I think that's where you need to think about the nature of the person and and how they're doing because it again, it does have the potential we see and hear stories of people who would say that was completely traumatic, which is the exact opposite of what the purpose of deliverance is. Right.
And so I think thinking that through again, with that comes a sort of the ability of the facilitator to honor the recipients like how, how are they feeling? How is the pace like, are they kind of pushing them beyond what they're comfortable with? Are they listening not only to what they're saying, but their nonverbals right? So real, real good, kind of those people skills. And I also think it's important and I think most probably do do some training or mentorship in the like, what is done right like every kind of deliverance model has a way they do it. Some are very structured, some are quite unstructured, but that's right. It would also just say also think about the how, right these aspects of like what we would call soft skills like the caring, the pacing, the attuning, which again, this is where some of your Mental health professionals, this is kind of what we what we go to school to learn. Maybe they can support, right and help you guys help you guys think that through, because I think that does tend to make a huge difference and in how it's received and how it's experienced. Because I think the how matters a lot. And you know, I would I don't have time for this, but if anyone's interesting, you know, if you think about research, it would be interesting. Like, there's, there's seems to be something different from people who find it profoundly helpful and profoundly traumatizing. You know, some of that, of course, there's a spiritual element that might be going on, but I think there's also just a human element. Yep. And, and if we can do everything we can to understand like, Okay, what makes us as, like, how can we do this in a way that's most supportive, then we inadvertently are like, you know, not self-defeating what we intended to do in the first place and so I’d encourage people to give, give some thought to that as well.
Laura Howe 30:55
I love that. I love how you're I love that the discussion isn't about whether it's right or wrong, because like you said, there's many different theological approaches, or there's many different ways of ministering. And there are stories of people who that this has been transformational. But when you look at the broader picture, how was the follow-up is this is this an isolated event where then there's no tracking and caring, that's happening on an ongoing basis. Amazing, I think follow up is a missed opportunity for so not just in deliverance ministries, but also in prayer and pastoral care. And there's like, so many different other ways that our churches are caring for people, looking at people holistically, and, and ensuring that people are ready and appropriate for this type of ministry. And being open to the concept of that there's, you know, maybe mental health support, maybe there's physical, you know, or biological issues that are happening, or relational issues that might need to be addressed prior to this. And just being open to that concept, saying that this isn't the right way or the only right way, but it's one of many different ways that people can find healing, setting expectations or temporary expectations of when people go in. So there's not this fall out, that you know, in this questioning of self identity and their connection with God, amazing. And then ensuring that those who are offering deliverance are people who are intentionally, in are trained or prepared are appropriate and, and ensuring that there's that there's a caring, safe, respectful environment that this is being offered. And I think these are incredible tips, and strategies and ways for people to maybe look at how they're offering deliverance in their church. And these I think, are actually amazing for any ministry that the church is offering. Right. And I enjoy the live arts is no different. So I am very thankful for for you and your wisdom. And I'm so glad we sat beside each other in that that event back in October.
Margaret Clarke 33:04
Definitely. That's awesome. I don't know if it'll fit in. You did a great little summary there. One other just thought I had on the expectations. I also it just came to mind. I think churches, and the facilitators, those who are doing the ministry of deliverance, also need to watch their expectations. So I kind of spoke about quick fixes for somebody who's receiving it. But I think it goes beyond that. I think sometimes we're so desperate for people to find freedom and healing. Yes, I think sometimes we can come with something like deliverance, which again, can have profound impacts on people's lives. But then if say if it doesn't, and I think a lot of people have sort of a moderate experiences of deliverance, or they might have some of the negative. And it might just be one step in a journey, a long journey. Right. Some of the issues that people struggle with are complex. And so I think it's also important that we don't then have oh, it's only the dramatic that success. Because then again, can we inadvertently kind of go oh, oh, dear. Oh, they still are struggling with this, unfortunately, like human nature in this season and life is to struggle with some ongoing things.
And so I think having just a realistic view, and maybe that goes back to that sort of theological understanding of deliverance and just the, the church's view of what it what it can accomplish and set kind of understanding of that. Just kind of another thought on that subject.
Laura Howe 34:30
Yeah, it's so good. We can often project our expectations, or, or carry our biases where if someone doesn't act or, or have an outward expression or experience, then that can determine what what we think has happened internally. And that's not that's not necessarily true. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for joining and sharing your wisdom. This has been a conversation I've had with a couple peers, as well. As I shared before, this is something that I I've been looking at going exploring and saying, okay, where, where, where does this fit in care ministry and so I'm just so grateful for your wisdom and for sharing with us today. Thank you.
Hey, thanks for listening. I believe that each church offers care in a unique way. Some churches have exceptional prayer and visitation ministry, others partner with mental health professionals, some do small groups, there isn't only one way to care for people. I say that anytime a church offers belonging, purpose and hope they are providing care. But we want to make sure that regardless of how we care, we are ensuring that we are considering the individual we're offering follow up and care in a manner that is safe and respects the individual and so I am so grateful for Margaret's wisdom in this episode, and I hope that it helps you consider how you and your church offers care. If you want to always have the next episode of the care ministry podcast, make sure you follow by clicking that plus button right at the top of your device. It's free and then you always know when the next episode is ready. Thanks again for connecting and take care
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